A Poor Call

[GI Jho]

Now, I am generally one who does not care about winning matches, nor do I generally care if I get reff'd (especially if I know what i did wrong). But in my championship match in the Archiupelago, in which my mech, Ferrum, battled it out with Raven's rusty mech slayer, Ruinous, I fell that IR's final reffing against my fighter was poorly made. Let me show you why.

For the second time in the match, Ferrum Magnus' missiles are intercepted by the UCA's weaponry. A devastating railgun shot then impacts the Sheekh machine's lower back, ripping out a chunk of armor and throwing the mech to the ground.

"ATTENTION! UNFAIR COMBAT BEHAVIOR BY FERRUM MAGNUS! SECOND OFFENSE!"

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Can't use weapons in combos, Dan.

Here is the infraction in question.

Now, normally I would go, "okay, I made a big mistake, whatever. It happens sometimes." But I pondered and pondered, and I just couldn't find what the "weapon combo" was. I thought he assuemd my ice missiles were chained with the pummel with Ferrum's hands. So I sent IR a PM (which, in all honesty, was kind of angrily sent):

Seriously?
« Message sent on Nov 29, 2012, 7:34pm »
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Those two were seperate moves. The missiles froze Ruinous to the spot. Then Ferrum pummeled Ruinous- a seperate combo. Then Ferrum stabbed Ruinous and tossed him into a wall. That's 3 attacks.

The PM in question.

Basically, I argued that he had made a bad call, becuase I assuemd he meant that the ice missiles were part of the combo. Then he replied and told me the real issue:

Re: Seriously?
« Message sent on Nov 30, 2012, 11:34am »
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Quote: Those two were seperate moves. The missiles froze Ruinous to the spot. Then Ferrum pummeled Ruinous- a seperate combo. Then Ferrum stabbed Ruinous and tossed him into a wall. That's 3 attacks.


I'm well aware. That "combo" -the one with the multiple punches- was illegal because you were making repeated strikes with special weapons, aka a sword and a mace. It's outright stated that you can't do that in the rules for combos.

So then I got very confused:

Re: Seriously?
« Message sent on Nov 30, 2012, 6:14pm »
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But they're his hands. :/ How am I suppsoed to prevent hi mfro using them as weapons?

But eh, whatever. It doesn't really matter now.

So thus begins my arguement. Ferrum is a mech, who has weaponized hands: instead of fingers and such, he has a mace and a sword for hands. As stated here:

On each side of his body are two oversized arms, each one, instead of a hand, ending with humongous steel spheres studded with spikes.

And here (post repairs from batle with Heavyclaws):

Extensive damage caused by Ferrum's battle with Heavyclaws has modified Ferrum's appearence slightly, and given him upgrades to his weapons. A massive, slightly curved blade (think Kratos' blades) sticks out where a flail once did. The blade can be shot out via a chain mechanism in Ferrum's arm. He can still swing the sword around like a flail, akin to his old hand.

Not to mention, IR claims that the move is illegal, but I have done combos with Ferrum before that were similar, and I was never called out on them. Soem examples are when Ferrum battled Orga, and when Ferrum fought Mecha Rex.

As stated earlier, I really don't care about winning, and if Ruinous had won without this, I would be happy for Raven defeating a much more physically powerful mech. But this poor ref cost me the match, and, seeing that Ferrum's hands ARE the weapons in question, and that Ferrum has done similar moves in the past, I am curious to see what you have to say for yourself, IR.

[Inferno Rodan]

Taken directly from the rules:

"Performing simple combo attacks is allowed. A combo attack consists of no more than 5, continuous, melee-only, non-special attacks. That basically means standard punches, kicks, tail whips, etc. For example, for the second attack of your post you could hit your opponent with a punch, then knee them in the gut, followed by an uppercut, followed by a kick, and finish off by throwing them into a building. You would then go on to make your remaining two attacks. Keep in mind you may ONLY use non-special melee attacks in combos, meaning if your monster has a special melee attack (such as an electrical shock touch or a sword) they may not use it as part of a combo. Also, keep these fairly uncommon; don’t go doing one in every other post."

You used a mace and a sword in a combo. How is it a "poor call" for me to punish you for that?

[GI Jho]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. His hands are a sword and a mace! How is he supposed to combo then? Does he just slap them around with the sides of his arms?

And I also said, he's used basic punch combos before, back when he jsut had 2 maces for hands, and I've never been called out on it befor,e until this past match. Why was this so suddenly brought up now, even though I had used his damn hands before in combos?

EDIT: Are you guys just suddenly deciding to become mroe strict on the issue of combos? Becuase SW had a similar reffing for combos pertaining to weapons/ damage output per hit, when an issue like this has never been brought up before.

[The Great MM]

Thinking on it, IR, he does sort of raise a point. I know I have made several hits in a row with Thresher when he uses his whips. Maybe a new "secondary combo" should be in affect where one can use weapons such as swords, maces, whips, etc in a row.

[Inferno Rodan]

Dec 2, 2012 12:48:10 GMT -5 GI Jho said:

I said it before, and I'll say it again. His hands are a sword and a mace! How is he supposed to combo then? Does he just slap them around with the sides of his arms?

He can't combo with his hands, obviously. Just like Suchodon can't because his claws are special melee weapons. Not like it's a hindrance to combat ability or anything.

And I also said, he's used basic punch combos before, back when he jsut had 2 maces for hands, and I've never been called out on it befor,e until this past match. Why was this so suddenly brought up now, even though I had used his damn hands before in combos?

Just because you never got caught at it doesn't mean you didn't break the rules.

EDIT: Are you guys just suddenly deciding to become mroe strict on the issue of combos? Becuase SW had a similar reffing for combos pertaining to weapons/ damage output per hit, when an issue like this has never been brought up before.

I'm certainly not. And if we ever were to do so, there would be an announcement of such just like there was when I cracked down on people making overpowered monsters.

Dec 2, 2012 13:37:59 GMT -5 The Great MM said:

Thinking on it, IR, he does sort of raise a point. I know I have made several hits in a row with Thresher when he uses his whips. Maybe a new "secondary combo" should be in affect where one can use weapons such as swords, maces, whips, etc in a row.

A hit from a whip really isn't all that powerful. It stings and might cut skin a little, but the same can be said of a good punch or kick. Nowhere near the caliber of something like a sword, mace, axe, spear, or even a knife.

And there's enough options with combos as it is. I'd REALLY prefer to avoid making it more complicated, both from a reffing standpoint and a fighting standpoint, by adding yet another type.

[GI Jho]

Dec 2, 2012 15:51:13 GMT -5 Inferno Rodan said:

He can't combo with his hands, obviously. Just like Suchodon can't because his claws are special melee weapons. Not like it's a hindrance to combat ability or anything.

So you're saying that some monsters aren't allowed to combo, then? i'm sure there's other monsters that have similar tools, like Sucho, Gadon, Harbinger, and the like. So they're not allowed to combo with their hands, becuase to attack with their hands would lead to them using a "special weapon"?

This also leads to something else: a character with natural weapons is actually at a disadvantage to someone who just uses brute strength, as they are unable to chain up hits without them either breakign the rules or being EXTREMELY awkward.

A hit from a whip really isn't all that powerful. It stings and might cut skin a little, but the same can be said of a good punch or kick. Nowhere near the caliber of something like a sword, mace, axe, spear, or even a knife.

And there's enough options with combos as it is. I'd REALLY prefer to avoid making it more complicated, both from a reffing standpoint and a fighting standpoint, by adding yet another type.

And now you're saying that as long as it is some arbitrary "weak damage level", it is okay to hit with it in a combo. Isn't that contradictory? You just said that you aren't suppsoed to use "special weapons" at all during a combo, so, weak striek or not, it's still technically an infraction by your rules.

for the bolded part: You said in SW's combo thread that extremely powerful single blows cannot be chained up for combos, as they do too much damage singularly to be fair use in a combo. So now, you are changing what you said.

[Inferno Rodan]

Dec 2, 2012 16:18:12 GMT -5 GI Jho said:

So you're saying that some monsters aren't allowed to combo, then? i'm sure there's other monsters that have similar tools, like Sucho, Gadon, Harbinger, and the like. So they're not allowed to combo with their hands, becuase to attack with their hands would lead to them using a "special weapon"?

Gadon and Harbinger are still capable of using their hands without using the weapons on their hands.

But to answer the essence of your question, yes, some monsters are limited in what they can perform combos with.

This also leads to something else: a character with natural weapons is actually at a disadvantage to someone who just uses brute strength, as they are unable to chain up hits without them either breakign the rules or being EXTREMELY awkward.

...What? Combos give absolutely no advantage in a fight.

And now you're saying that as long as it is some arbitrary "weak damage level", it is okay to hit with it in a combo. Isn't that contradictory? You just said that you aren't suppsoed to use "special weapons" at all during a combo, so, weak striek or not, it's still technically an infraction by your rules.

I frankly wouldn't care if someone slapped their opponent several times with the flat side of their sword as a combo. Because those are weak hits and don't utilize the weapon in its intended, effective way. I just said they couldn't be used in combos as a blanket statement to prevent people from slashing/stabbing/bludgeoning/hacking away at/etc their opponent 5 times and calling it a combo. Because that would be cheap as hell.

You had Ferrum repeatedly pummel and stab his opponent with a giant spiked mace and a sword. That is FAR beyond what is acceptable for a combo just in terms of the sheer amount of damage it would do.

for the bolded part: You said in SW's combo thread that extremely powerful single blows cannot be chained up for combos, as they do too much damage singularly to be fair use in a combo. So now, you are changing what you said.

I'm not changing anything. A powerful single blow that sends the opponent flying will do far more than sting and cause a shallow surface cut on skin. I don't know how you got "extremely powerful blow" out of "good punch or kick."